A wake-up call for parents on Fentanyl Awareness Day

Fentanyl—dubbed by some as America's haunting "F" word—continues to carve a path of destruction across the nation. With the U.S. facing its deadliest drug epidemic in history, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says fentanyl is one of the main culprits.

But today, on National Fentanyl Awareness Day, we're not just dwelling on the bleakness. Instead, we're diving into conversations with parents who've faced the unimaginable—the loss, the struggle, the heartache. Their stories are raw, but they're also filled with resilience and hope.

So, as we gather on this day of awareness, let's not just focus on the statistics or the darkness. Let's remember the power of love, community, and standing together in the fight against fentanyl. Because even in our darkest moments, there's always a glimmer of hope, a chance for redemption. And together, we can make a difference.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Fentanyl, referred to by some people as the new F word, is undeniably leaving a trail of devastation in its wake. The United States is experiencing its deadliest drug epidemic in history, and the CDC says fentanyl is the main culprit. 

[00:00:21] Tom Quehl: When you're talking about the leading cause of death for ages 18 to 45, how does it not get more press?

[00:00:28] Angela Kennecke: Today, on National Fentanyl Awareness Day, we'll revisit some of our conversations with parents who have lost children to fentanyl. They discovered that 

[00:00:37] Laura Didier: he had purchased what he thought was a Percocet pill through a seller that he interacted with on 

[00:00:44] Angela Kennecke: Snapchat. And we'll also introduce you to Tom and Stephanie Quell.

who never imagined their child would become part of the troubling statistic. 

[00:00:54] Stephanie Quehl: He loved sports. He loved music. He loved to read. He had a great friend group. Very academic, you know, always do well in school, but in a quiet way. He didn't have to, you know, tell everyone about it. And so we never really worried about Jack.

And I think that's kind of part of our message too. I never felt the need to warn him of fentanyl.

[00:01:22] Angela Kennecke: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke, the founder of Emily's Hope, a nonprofit I formed after I too lost my daughter, Emily, to fentanyl poisoning. As we gather on this day of awareness, let's not just focus on the statistics or the darkness. Let's remember the power of love, community, and standing together in the fight against fentanyl, because even in our darkest hours, there is always a glimmer of hope.

A chance for redemption and together we can make a difference.

Well Tom and Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us on Grieving Out Loud. I always say to other parents I meet on this podcast that I am so grateful to know you and thank you for the work that you're doing, but I am so sorry that we are all part of this club that none of us ever wanted to join, didn't think we ever would, and can never leave.

Yes. 

[00:02:30] Tom Quehl: Thank you for having us. We appreciate your time. 

[00:02:34] Angela Kennecke: I was doing a little research into your family, your foundation and Jack and your son Jack was born the same year as my daughter, Emily, and it just seemed as if he led a charmed life, like there were so many amazing things that he did so many things he had going for him.

Can you talk to me a little bit about Jack? 

[00:02:56] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah, Jack was, you know, obviously we have other kids, but he really had a special place in a lot of people's hearts because he was just Jack, but we often laughed because He was very quiet and unassuming, and so a lot of times you didn't know what he was thinking or if he was funny or if he was smart.

Because he would just stand back and watch the world and really be introspective in life. He loved sports, he loved music, he loved to read. He had a great friend group. He was very academic, you know, always do well in school, but in a quiet way. He didn't have to, you know, tell everyone about it. And so we never really worried about Jack, and I think that's kind of part of her message too.

I never felt the need to warn him of Sentinel. And honestly, Tom and I didn't know anything about Sentinel. 

[00:03:45] Angela Kennecke: I think you raise a wonderful point because this really can happen to anybody and even good kids, great kids can make a poor decision or a poor choice sometimes. And we don't know what circumstances that that's going to be under or how that's going to arise.

I mean, I have other children, too. So I know exactly what you mean. Like in Emily's case, she had behaviors that we were very worried about her and we knew something was wrong. But I've got other kids that I feel like I don't have to worry as much. I mean, we've had these conversations, obviously, since they lost their sister.

But I can see how if you never encountered anything like this, That you really wouldn't feel the need to do some big talk or warning about the dangers of fentanyl out there. 

[00:04:30] Tom Quehl: Yeah, I agree. So, when you read about fentanyl poisoning in our eyes, you read more about celebrities passing away. And we never put the dots together to have the conversation with Jack or any of our kids.

Because, you know, it was not my kid, as Stephanie always says in her talks, it was not my kid that this would ever happen to.

[00:04:54] Angela Kennecke: At age 24, Jack graduated from the University of South Carolina and embarked on a promising career journey in Baltimore. He'd landed a job with Venture for America, a non profit that connects entrepreneurs with startup companies. However, just two months into this exciting new chapter, Tom and Stephanie received a phone call that would change their lives forever.

[00:05:22] Tom Quehl: He had texted me that night that he was out watching South Carolina football. He loved football. He was at a bar watching South Carolina and Georgia with a couple friends from University of South Carolina that also moved to Baltimore. And then one of his friends and Jack went back to, Jack had like a rooftop deck.

They had tried some cocaine that was laced with fentanyl. Chris was his friend. Chris passed away. They found Jack with a heartbeat. His other friend, Aaron, the next day had found Jack and Chris. And that's when we drove up to Baltimore that night and tried to get their thinking the best. We had no idea what fentanyl does to you.

So we, you know, always hope for the best and Jack was the kind of guy that would make it out of anything.

[00:06:09] Angela Kennecke: Sadly, that was not the case this time. When Tom and Stephanie reached the hospital, they were met with the heartbreaking sight of Jack, unresponsive and clinging to life.

[00:06:23] Stephanie Quehl: He was laying there and I think they were trying to tell us that we should say our goodbyes. They were so nice, but they said he had a one percent chance and we, we thought, okay, he'll beat that and had no idea. And then they started hooking up everything, you know, after we said, let's, let's do this. And then his, Poor little body, just what we saw through the night, you know, they just, you can't make it.

[00:06:47] Angela Kennecke: I'm so sorry that you experienced that, you know, I was at my daughter's apartment after she died. So I was there when the paramedics were working on her and there for several hours when the crime lab came in and all of these things. And I, I don't think. There is a good way, you know, whether they're still living and you think maybe you have a chance for a minute or whether they're already gone and there you are.

I just feel like it's just so traumatic and so awful and it's just burned into your brain for the rest of our lives. 

[00:07:19] Tom Quehl: So our son Tyler, who also a year behind Jack, kind of went the same route as Jack. He was in University of South Carolina, also Venture for America. He went up to Philadelphia for his job.

So two weeks before this happened, we moved Tyler in Labor Day weekend and Jack came up from Baltimore and we visited Tyler, got him moved into Philadelphia, then went to Jack's apartment in Baltimore to meet Chris who passed away and Aaron who found them. I'm glad that happened, that we got to see him two weeks beforehand, but it also, you know, Tyler got hit.

We called Tyler to go meet Jack at the hospital. before us, so Tyler probably saw things we didn't see, so I don't, he doesn't like to talk about it, and I don't press him for it, but I'm sure there's things that he can't get out of his head. 

[00:08:09] Stephanie Quehl: And, and we give Aaron credit, like he called us himself, this poor boy found two of his friends, and had the guts to call me himself, and I will forever appreciate that.

So he died 

[00:08:22] Angela Kennecke: with his friend, and you're not the first parent I've talked to who has lost a child who also died with some other friends. We have a case in my town of a couple of young 23, 24 year old guys who just decided to buy a couple of pills after a night of drinking and snort them, and they both died together.

We've also had a mom on Grieving Out Loud whose son traveled from Nebraska to Nashville for a destination wedding. Carol Wolfe's son, Josh, died right on the street outside of his hotel from fentanyl poisoning.

[00:09:02] Carol Wolfe: He was the type of kid that shared, so he told me when he was leaving, loading the plane, called me when he got there, we had a nice conversation, and I told him, I said, please be careful and stay safe. I'll see you in a few days. I love you. That was the last time. Sorry. 

[00:09:28] Angela Kennecke: It's 

[00:09:28] Susan Bartz Herrick: alright. 

[00:09:29] Carol Wolfe: That was the last time I heard him say it.

[00:09:33] Angela Kennecke: Were those your last words to each other? Yeah. You know, that's something I think is actually as painful as it is, and I know why you're crying. I love you. But it's actually a gift, right? It is. Because I have the same thing with my daughter. On Mother's Day, three days before her death, our last words to each other were As we said goodbye, or I love you.

I am so grateful that those were our last words. I 

[00:09:59] Carol Wolfe: am too. I will never take those words for granted again.

[00:10:09] Angela Kennecke: Carol remains haunted by the mystery surrounding how Josh got the fentanyl that claimed his life. She suspects the answer may lie within the phone of a Canadian man who Josh was hanging out with that fateful night. Unfortunately, investigators were not able to get inside that phone. That's also the story for the Quells.

[00:10:33] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah, it's hard, and one of the other messages to people that are listening is, we can't get into Jack's phone. And that is maddening, and I know there's some new programs that you can sign up for, but we always stress to the kids and the parents to get the passcodes, or leave it for your parents in an envelope, because when you said what happened that night, maybe we could piece it together.

You know, one boy died, so he's not here to tell us. And Jack then passed and we have nothing. So we were, that's all kind of figuring it out. But like Tom said, you know, he was set to go out that night. We often show his final Instagram video of him getting ready to go out to show that, you know, had not intended to overdose by any means and for Aaron to find two of his friends, I can't even imagine, you know, I'm, we often say we're thankful we didn't have to find our child.

Like so many parents do.

[00:11:29] Angela Kennecke: We've interviewed many of those parents here on grieving out Loud, including Chris Didier, his teenage son. Zach died after taking a fake prescription pill he bought by Snapchat. Here's Zach's mom, Laura. 

[00:11:44] Laura Didier: So he got this pill on the 26th of December, 2020. He took it at, you know, after bedtime. And, um, and he died, slumped over his desk, but there were no pills in his room.

There was no injury to his body. So it had to be such shock. Who, who discovered him? His dad, he was, he was with his dad at that time. It had to be such 

[00:12:08] Angela Kennecke: shock because if you're not even suspecting. that your kid is doing anything and your story is so similar to Sam's who purchased, I talked to another parent whose son purchased a pill off of Snapchat, like a menu, you know, and got it delivered to 

[00:12:24] Laura Didier: his home.

We really were so blindsided and it was too late. I mean, obviously his dad started CPR. Our 23 year old son called 911. The paramedics came, but it was, you know, they, they tried to work on it, but I'm sure the paramedics, as soon as they arrived, that, you know, out of ob sure they knew right away gone. He was blue, he's c 

[00:12:49] Angela Kennecke: so incredible to me and I calling them overdoses be a misnomer.

It's definite it's murder. It's drug in the person had to take whatever they thought they were getting, but you know, having no idea that they could die with fentanyl. And was the pill 100 percent fentanyl 

[00:13:13] Laura Didier: Yeah, there was no Percocet in the pill. It was a completely counterfeit pill, and the amount of fentanyl obviously was lethal.

And so, in our county, tragically, in 2020, they were really seeing a sharp uptick in fentanyl deaths. Zach was the last death in 2020 for fentanyl, so because of this alarming trend, they did, our county did look at it like a crime scene and they did, you know, have all of us outside. When I arrived at the house, they'd already had pronounced him dead and everybody was on the driveway when I got to the house and, um, and Chris, his father, you know, just said our, our baby is gone.

My other two kids helped me up. Um, In the shock of it all, and they were doing their investigation because You know, there were no other drugs in his room, there were no pills, there was nothing in his room, there was no evidence of any drug use, there was no injury to his body, they ruled out self harm immediately, and, but they said, we don't know exactly what it is, but the coroner said, we're going to suspect fentanyl because we're seeing this trend in our county, and I'm like, what is that?

How could my kid get it? What? I knew nothing about fentanyl. counterfeit pills. I knew nothing about any, there's no awareness in our area at all.

[00:14:36] Angela Kennecke: Jenny Orr was also in shock after discovering her teenage daughter Kelsey, a sophomore in high school, dead in her bedroom.

[00:14:48] Jenny Orr: On December 23rd, I got up that morning and I went downstairs and I opened up the door and she was on her bed. She was on her side, one foot on the floor kind of thing. Immediately I went and I tried to shake her and I tried to get her up and she wasn't moving. She was cold. She wasn't moving. There was no, I couldn't move her jaw.

I couldn't do anything. My brother just happened to be there that morning and I just screamed and yelled. And I, you know, I keep trying to move her mouth and I would hold her and I would, I just kept saying, why? 

[00:15:26] Angela Kennecke: And did you find out why immediately or did that take a while? Tell me what No, I 

[00:15:30] Jenny Orr: mean, when I looked at where she was laying right beside her was a little baggie with four blue pills.

I get a telephone call from her best friend and I didn't answer and I think it came over as a text. She says, how is Kelsey? So I knew that I had to call her back and her dad answered the phone. And I said, you know, again, there's no words, I mean, it's one sentence, she's dead or Kelsey's dead. Her friend told us that she watched her take that pill the night before, and she fell asleep while she was on the phone with her.

She said, I think I told her, I don't think this is a good idea. But 

[00:16:11] Angela Kennecke: she didn't 

[00:16:11] Jenny Orr: tell anybody else. But she didn't tell anybody else. The friend 

[00:16:13] Angela Kennecke: didn't tell anybody, 

[00:16:14] Jenny Orr: yeah. And our kids these days have come to start to believe that snitches get stitches. That's all they're saying is just that. If there's anything that I can let people know, it's no, it's not snitching if it saves a life.

[00:16:31] Angela Kennecke: Kelsey was the ORRA's only child. After years of trying to have a baby, including undergoing IVF treatments, they made the decision to pursue adoption. 

[00:16:43] Jenny Orr: On April 22nd, 2008, we got a telephone call at nine o'clock that came into the house. I was home, which was kind of amazing because I was a traveling consultant.

I could go all over the United States. I just happened to be home that day. Jim was out at the farm and I immediately say okay and hang up the phone and Jim does not answer his phone. And so I had to call his dad and he's, um, the first thing I said to Ron was, you're going to be a grandpa. Where's your, where's your son?

And he was so excited. And the next thing you know, he's got Jim there and he's rushing into town. And the first name was decided that we were going to call her Kelsey. But we were going to spell it a little bit different because we knew she was going to be special.

[00:17:31] Angela Kennecke: And she was truly special. A gifted athlete, blessed with a one of a kind sense of humor. Yet tragically, like far too many other young adults, her dreams were abruptly cut short by the devastating grip of our nation's fentanyl epidemic. 

[00:17:50] Jenny Orr: I do not ever want any other mom or dad or family to ever have to go through this.

Finding their daughter and having to make a telephone call or having to say the word she's dead, you know, that no other family should not have to not get to go through a prom, through a graduation, through a wedding, through becoming grandparents. This thing called fentanyl took away all of our hopes, took away everything at 15 years old.

[00:18:23] Angela Kennecke: Like many people who die from fentanyl, the Oars don't think their daughter knew that fentanyl was in the pill she ingested. That's the same case with Jack. His parents believed that he thought he was using cocaine. Do you know if Jack had regularly used party drugs or was this a rare thing for him? Do you have any idea?

[00:18:44] Tom Quehl: Well, it definitely wasn't the first time. I would say that the vast majority of Jack's friends from high school that had gone to different colleges and all his college friends who came in for Jack's funeral admitted to us how rancid it was, pills, cocaine, and that's what blindsided us and they had all admitted that they had done something like this, not on a daily basis, but maybe on a weekend.

We'd be naive to say that this was the first time Jack did that. 

[00:19:11] Angela Kennecke: You think about these educated kids from privileged families and how prevalent this must be among all of these young people this age, right? Yeah. If it's happening with your kid and your kid's friends, it's happening with other kids and other kids friends.

Yes. Correct. 

[00:19:27] Stephanie Quehl: You know, I'll never forget, Jack lived internationally for three semesters in college and he traveled with the same group of students. And, This sweet girl, she was the last person I talked to at the funeral and she said, Hi, I'm Lexi. I lived with Jack in Singapore. And I was like, what? So I invited her to my house and she made me feel so good because my dad was standing there, you know, my parents are in their 80s.

They don't understand all this. And she just said, Mrs. Kuo, I want you to know that Jack was not a drug user. He bit you like what you were asking to answer your question. And that made me feel really good because at first I was like, do we not know something? Because I also, like Tom said, would be naive to think that our kid couldn't be doing something, but we were just like, what?

And then other friends said that it could have been any of them taking care of Chris that night that was with Chris in that, you know, it was Jack. 

[00:20:15] Angela Kennecke: Well, and I have to say, we're distributing fentanyl testing strips to local bars in my community and tattoo shops and things like that, and we're running out all the time.

So we know that these party drugs are happening in every community, at the bar scene or wherever. Fentanyl

isn't just laced in your traditional party drugs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued a warning about counterfeit versions of well known medications like Percocet and OxyContin. They're responsible for nearly a quarter of adolescent fentanyl related deaths. Here's what DEA agent Travis Ocken has to say about it.

[00:20:55] DEA Agent Travis Ocken: I think with a lot of other drug users, there's stigmas that are attached to them, where, you know, probably from a young age people hear about smoking methamphetamine, how bad that can be, or injecting heroin, you know, through the use of a needle. So those stigmas, I think, keep some people away. However, with a pill, we've all grown up to take medications that are prescribed by doctors or even, you know, an aspirin or a Tylenol if you have a headache.

So I think just our overall perception of taking pills is that they're, they're helpful and not harmful.

[00:21:31] Angela Kennecke: The Quells are trying to raise awareness about that through their foundation called Do It For Jack. They're focusing on having direct conversations about fentanyl with parents, caregivers, and students at schools, clubs, and colleges. and special events. 

[00:21:47] Tom Quehl: The week after Jack died, it took about seven to eight days before he had the funeral and everybody's coming over to comfort you.

And after the funeral, your friends have to go back to work. Jack's friends have to go back to college or their jobs. And that's when it really sets in that you've lost someone you truly love. And we were both recluses. We didn't want to do anything. About two weeks into that, Stephanie, the light went on in her head and said, we need to do something.

We need to talk to our nation's youth and their parents about the dangers of illicit drugs, mainly fentanyl, so that no one else loses their jack. 

[00:22:23] Stephanie Quehl: We also asked for donations after he died for like an educational fund is how it started. I didn't know, we didn't know what. And so then we had all this money and we're like, okay, what are we creating with this?

We have to use this and do something with it. And it's, it's a lot of work and I'm sure you, you could appreciate their days. You're just like, why did I even start this? Or how am I going to get through this or apologizing when I miss things? Cause I can't remember, you know, it's just grief brain. Grief brain is real.

Yes. 

[00:22:55] Angela Kennecke: And then I think about, too, some things I get frustrated with her. I feel like I've been shouting from the rooftops and I had a national platform, you know, since the end of 2018 is when we really started. And I just feel like, and here your child still died, you know, sometimes that feeling of like, I'm doing all this work.

I've talked to thousands and thousands and thousands, probably 30, 40, 000 students, I've been on national platforms. I've been to the white house. I've done all these things. But yet kids are still dying, young people, not just all, you know, children, but obviously young people are still dying. And sometimes that can feel really frustrating.

[00:23:33] Stephanie Quehl: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:23:34] Tom Quehl: I agree a hundred percent with that. Every day you get some piece of news that someone died and it didn't have to happen and it tugs at your heart, but it makes you more angry and heartfelt because no one seems to get it. You've been in this a lot longer than us. But our message, the people we're touching, and it's still happening, and that's extremely frustrating.

[00:23:57] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah, I think it's a lot, I will, I want to say, was it not my kid, I just thought it would never be in my world, right? And so I think a lot of parents still have that, and that's fine. It's a natural thing to think, you know, we live in a really great community, and they've been nothing but supportive, but things still do happen.

Like you said, you've talked to thousands when people don't want you to talk because then they have a problems wherever you are. When no, let's be proactive, you know, let's educate and figure this out together. We've kind of found out lately too that we've done some more adult things lately. They don't know.

[00:24:32] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:24:32] Stephanie Quehl: We got to start educating the adults first. I 

[00:24:37] Angela Kennecke: do a lot of community and school presentations jointly, you know, maybe do a school one in the afternoon and a community one at night, and so I think you're right. It's important that everybody, learns about this, understands what's going on and understands the danger and how risky it is to use any illicit drug at all.

I mean, just whether you're experimenting, whether it's just at a party, or whether you're suffering from substance use disorder. I mean, all of these people are affected and their families. I think about the collateral damage. You know, when you talk about your other children, how are they coping with this loss?

[00:25:13] Tom Quehl: Yeah, it's a great question because And so Stephanie started a young professionals board and Tyler's on that. Tyler's the one that's a year younger than Jack. He doesn't say much on it, but one of the documentaries we put together, he talked for about a minute and a half on it. His part was the best because he talked about, you know, how young people are still doing this and how it influenced them to make good decisions.

My son, I was married before, so I have an older son, uh, Eric. He can't talk about it. It really, really affected him. He wasn't extremely close with Jack, but the times we got together, which was since he had gotten older and graduated college and Jack had graduated college, we spent a lot more time together, really bothered him.

And, and Adam, who was our youngest, I think he's 10 years younger than Jack. So it really, You know, it definitely affected him, but, you know, we kind of call him kind of like a first child because all our kids had left and he still lives with us. So it definitely affected him because you got the stigma of people that still say goofy things about no one high school that affects him, you know, making jokes about it, not even trying to affect him.

definitely bothers him a lot. 

[00:26:27] Angela Kennecke: All of my kids were in high school when Emily died and, you know, obviously it impacted them greatly. I have found that the charity has helped them just as it's helped me because they've all been involved in one way or the other with that effort. And I hear you saying one of your sons is involved.

And I think that that has helped reduce some of the stigma and shame that they felt too about losing their sister in this way. 

[00:26:52] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah. Adam too is at. The older boys high school. And so, you know, I was a little worried about that and it's like, but they know our story, so I know he's taken care of, but also in your children probably felt the same way they can't remain anonymous.

You know, everyone knows your story. And so I think carrying that of just wanting to be a kid and living life without having a tragic story attached is very hard. He is Tom and I's light though, because people are like, how do you do it? We're like, you know what? We have to get up in the morning. We have to get him ready for school.

We have to drive him. We have to go to a sporting event. And so we thank God that we actually have, we laughed back when, but now he's, he's saving us and we're saving him. 

[00:27:35] Tom Quehl: He is, yeah. I always make the comment, that's why God gave us Adam, because he's the one that, he, He helps us breathe in the morning and hats off to him because today is the first day he actually drove to school, got his license Saturday, so it's baby steps and he's becoming independent, which, you know, it's tough when he's kind of the lifeline, you don't want to lose him, but he needs to grow too.

[00:27:59] Stephanie Quehl: I'm so much more anxious. I said to Tom, I'm so worried about Adam going to college, and I don't know what I'm worried about, probably all of this. But. Then the older two went, I didn't worry, Jack was in 17 different countries in college and not once did I say, be careful, don't take anything, you know, stay with your friends, you know, all this.

But now we're like, you lose one of your kids, you're like, I can't lose another kid. And you hear of these parents who have lost multiple kids and I don't know how they do it. 

[00:28:29] Angela Kennecke: I mean, I agree. And I think I'm always, even to this day, and it has been quite a bit longer for me. My son is actually studying abroad right now for his last semester.

I track him, he knows that. So, I always say, this is for my anxiety. And I constantly say, just check in, I just want you to check in with me. I just want to know you're okay. And I think he does understand, although it can be kind of annoying, right? I say, once you lose a child, you know that it can happen.

And it wouldn't necessarily have to be from, Fentanyl or drug related. Cause you could lose them in a car accident. You could lose a child in any way. You could lose someone. And I think that we know the reality of it. We know it can happen. We know we're not immune from it. I think most of us walk through life thinking nothing really that bad is gonna happen to us.

We tell ourselves that. Right? But once it does, it's so hard not to worry about everybody else or it happening again.

If you or someone you know is struggling with grief, I recommend you check out our podcast titled. Broken Heart Syndrome, Four Ways We Grieve. I sat down with a thanatologist or grief educator to talk about how grief affects us. He also gives practical tools you can use for coping with significant loss.

[00:29:48] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: What I inevitably try to do is help people reconnect with their loved ones, not in a supernatural way. 

[00:29:54] Angela Kennecke: Not like voodoo or spiritual or mediums or things like that. Right. 

[00:29:58] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: I look at it that if we connect with them, if we really listen to our heart, we know that their presence is there. I would agree with 

[00:30:09] Angela Kennecke: that.

I hear my daughter's voice and sometimes I think I'm crazy. 

[00:30:13] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: But no, you're, you're, that's great. Because you're going to hear what they're going to say. If there's questions, unresolved differences, whatever might be going on, you still can have that conversation. In all my years of work, I have found that we miss our loved ones physically being here.

But we miss talking to them more than anything else in the world. We miss hearing their voice, what they say, what they do. If we really truly listen, we will know. 

[00:30:40] Angela Kennecke: So how can we help someone who is grieving? 

[00:30:45] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: I think one of the biggest things is having the support. Oftentimes when, and maybe this has happened to you, maybe not, but oftentimes friendships will change after a death.

[00:30:58] Angela Kennecke: I think that's very true. 

[00:30:59] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: And people don't know what to do. They're actually experiencing the same loss. They probably knew that person the same way to a degree, but what do I say? And all it is is going to be a negative, down, sad. I don't want to experience that. I'm already sad. So all these things go through the head, and so I'm going to find Happier people, right?

[00:31:21] Angela Kennecke: And so people don't necessarily wanna be around people who are grieving, right? 

[00:31:24] Dr. Mark Vande Braak: And so it, it, it's neither good or bad, but other people I have found then start to step in and say, you know what, Angela, I'm gonna be there for you no matter what. I'm going to hear your stories. I'm not gonna fix it. But I'm there to listen to it.

And I, when I worked with families that have lost a child, they, I said, each of them will grieve differently. Not that it's a right or a wrong.

[00:31:54] Angela Kennecke: The Quells agree that some of their relationships have changed since their son died. Even meeting new families feels different.

[00:32:04] Tom Quehl: So Adam is into volleyball, and Adam was in 8th grade when Jack passed away. And he had just made a volleyball club team. Maybe two months later, we had to go to Adam's first volleyball game in Indianapolis, and I remember eating at lunch after their first couple games with all these parents we had no idea that they are.

And they were asking about our family. And that was the first time where someone actually didn't know anything about Jack and asked us, well, how many kids do you have? What are they doing? And at that time we kind of clamped up a little bit and, you know, we said we had four, even though we really had four and one was in heaven, that was a weird experience.

Then you finally can have, you get the courage to have that conversation that, yeah, I lost my son to fentanyl poisoning, and this is what we do to circumvent that so that no one else loses a person like Jack. 

[00:32:55] Angela Kennecke: One of the things I think of when I hear Jack's story, and he was just so brilliant, such a brilliant kid.

When I talk to groups, I show a poster of young people who fentanyl poisoning. And I talk about all the lost potential and what they could have brought to the world. And I think that's really true, especially in Jack's case, you know, the things that he could have done and I will never know. 

[00:33:20] Tom Quehl: If I think about anything, I think about that.

And now that his friends are settling and either living with a girlfriend or a girl living with a boy or getting married. We went to the first wedding of Jack's friends, Dom, last July. That was tough because you see these kids. Starting to grow and mature and leaving the social world of their buddies, the frat buddies from, uh, college in the back of my mind, I'm thinking that could have been Jack.

[00:33:50] Stephanie Quehl: Well, or Jack should be here right now, you know, that's very hard to see them together in posts. And I said this before, my biggest, I, I'm so worried about Jack being forgotten and all of our friends are so good, but everyone starts moving on in life and you have more years than us and, you know, you're just like, Sometimes to our feelings, you can't express to anyone who hasn't experienced of like five minutes before I was supposed to be doing say why I just can't do it.

You know, there's times where you can't put the foot in front of each other, but it's a very hard thing to explain. I say I just get stuck. You know, I'm stuck right now. I can't, can't move forward. I just need time or space. And that's very hard. 

[00:34:31] Angela Kennecke: Right. It is hard for other people to understand who have never experienced anything like this for sure.

And grief. Your grief has its own timeline. Your grief cannot fit into someone else's timeline. You will experience and express your grief as you see fit for as long as you see fit. And I think that other people in our society in general has a really hard time understanding that. And I've been talking about Emily for six years.

I'm gonna keep talking about her. She is at the root of our charity. I will not let her be forgotten as long as I have breath. And so I'm going to keep doing that. And I think that can be sometimes annoying to other people, right? Just probably just like, stop already. But I know that her story has, although I can't put a number on it, I know her story has saved lives and I will continue to work in her name.

But you're right. The rest of society doesn't always understand it. 

[00:35:25] Tom Quehl: When I read your bio, Angela, I was actually pretty excited about this podcast because, you know, we've done a few podcasts and a couple of radio shows, but you're the first person to interview us that kind of living this nightmare that we have.

And you're also the first person we've met that is doing a podcast that is trying to do the same thing we're doing. So hats off to you. You've been in this a lot longer than us. And as Stephanie said, it's tough sometimes. to wake up knowing that you had to present or knowing you have to meet with people.

So I'm glad that somehow we hooked up. 

[00:36:02] Angela Kennecke: It's also exhausting. And I don't know if you've found this. It's exhausting. After you tell the story, I told the story once last week. I'm telling it twice this week. And I just have to say I'm completely emotionally and physically wiped out afterwards. Do you feel the same way?

[00:36:17] Tom Quehl: Well, you can't believe. So when we first started doing this, we, we started in small numbers. We started talking to classrooms of 25 to 30 students. And one time we had booked four sessions in one day. No time. Yeah. So we did two in the morning, went to lunch and did two in the afternoon. And I literally, I could, I could barely drive home.

I was, I was, I looked at stuff and I said, never ever again. Let's max this out at two, maybe three if we have to. But it was, when you say exhausting, people don't understand how tiring it is. 

[00:36:54] Angela Kennecke: You learn what your boundaries are then. You learn to set those boundaries and even to, like I talked to you about doing a community in a school presentation.

Even that's really too much for me. I'll do it, but it is more than I would rather not have to relive her death and the story. And I mean, I'm asking you guys to relive what happened to Jack when I talked to you. I'm very aware of that. 

[00:37:15] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah. Well, it's funny too, cause I've had to cancel or move things around this spring that we booked in the fall.

And I finally said, like you're saying, our calendar three days in a row, like I can't do this and I hope you understand. And, you know, Tom and I, as we're learning, it's a learning process. will be better about our planning. And so we do ask, you know, we get up and we exercise and we work, but every day we like lay down.

You don't have to necessarily fall asleep, but like just my brain never turns off. It's actually awful, but you know, you're constantly thinking about me just to take time, just to like turn it off if you can to reset.

[00:37:56] Angela Kennecke: Even though it's exhausting, the Quells have found purpose in telling their personal story to hopefully prevent other deaths. They've spoken to not only students and communities.

[00:38:10] Tom Quehl: The first corporate presentation, it was 80 live and then over a hundred that were virtual and one of the employees who I would say was in his forties. After we presented, he said, who here? So life has been touched by fentanyl poisoning and over 20 people is 

[00:38:28] Stephanie Quehl: crazy. 

[00:38:29] Tom Quehl: It was, it was just, that's what really gets you that a lot of people don't talk about the stigma of fentanyl poisoning, until people like you and us talk about it, make it okay to talk about that you've lost someone you love.

[00:38:42] Angela Kennecke: There's so many of us now. I mean, I'm sorry that you've joined these ranks of parents, but there are so many of us now. Like, I mean, Congress just came out with a report, a select committee from the House, talking about if more than 200 people are dying just from fentanyl poisoning every day, if a Boeing was crashing out of the sky every single day, and I use that in my presentation already.

[00:39:03] Tom Quehl: How does Stephanie ? 

[00:39:04] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Although I have to say, I think also, what's his name used it, the wrapper. He used that analogy. Jelly wall. Yeah. Jelly roll. But it's, but it's a 

[00:39:10] Stephanie Quehl: very great visual 

[00:39:11] Angela Kennecke: and it's very true. I always say if planes were dropping outta the sky every day, what would we be doing? This country?

We'd be grounding every plane we'd be getting to the bottom of it. But because there's so much stigma surrounded by, with drug use and fentanyl poisoning and addiction and all these things, we're not doing enough.

Many of our previous guests, including Susan Bartz Herrick, have opened up about the stigma they faced. Bartz Herrick lost her only child, Luke, to fentanyl poisoning after a battle with substance use disorder. Luke's addiction began with OxyContin after a horrible car crash nearly took his life.

[00:39:53] Susan Bartz Herrick: The stigma is still so in place. I mean, can you imagine going into a hospital room and overhearing parents talking to their child who's bald and has chemo ports in them? Why are you doing this to us? Why are, why are you so bad? You know, no, they have a disease. and parents have to recognize that what they are dealing with is bioneurological changes in the brain.

And when people start to detox, they're not going out to get high. They're going out. I mean, their brain thinks it's dying, right? 

[00:40:33] Angela Kennecke: I ask. It's the most important thing. It becomes more important than anything else in their life. Well, I asked Luke 

[00:40:39] Susan Bartz Herrick: once, I said, What does it feel like? We have a little, uh, lake in, in, in the back of our house.

And he said, mom, let's say we're back out there and somebody pours kerosene on me and lights a match. I go up. He said, I got two choices. I can stand there and let that fire burn me up. or I can go and jump in the lake. He said, it is so painful, painful. He said, everything, every nerve fiber you have is on fire inside and out.

That's why people go back to using.

[00:41:17] Angela Kennecke: Whether a loved one battled substance use disorder for years, or lost their life after just one fake prescription pill. The Quells say the stigma is still there, plain and simple. 

[00:41:29] Stephanie Quehl: That's maddening to me, because I don't understand it. That a plane dropping out of the sky, like you said, would make national news every day.

[00:41:37] Tom Quehl: When you're talking about the leading cause of death for ages 18 to 45, how does it not get more press? And Mark Murphy, who's a friend of ours, he's on our board, he lost his daughter Lizzie in 2019. And he has a great point. He'll say, okay, I want you to imagine this happening to you because it's a very good chance it could happen to you.

You could be in our boat with us because of all this going on. 

[00:42:04] Stephanie Quehl: He's like, don't say I can't imagine you when you tell your story. Oh, I can't imagine. Yes, you can. Like you have to. And we were in those shoes of our life is great. Tom and I had, we still have a good life, honey. But like, you know, everything was going well.

Like you said, our kids graduated. Both of them had jobs. Adam was doing well in school. Everybody was doing great. And then, you know, the ball dropped. 

[00:42:26] Angela Kennecke: It's like a bomb is dropped off in your family. Just a bomb hits your family. 

[00:42:31] Stephanie Quehl: Yeah, you don't realize too how much it affects everybody around you. Like it's not just our immediate family, you know, it's extended family, friends, relatives, community, and it really hit everyone pretty hard in our little area of Cincinnati, because I think you're, like you said, this kid had it all, you know, was raised right, went to school, educated, knows right and wrong, and fentanyl doesn't care.

[00:42:56] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you so much for everything that you're doing to keep Jack's memory alive, to educate kids and adults and everybody about this issue. I have a feeling that I will run into you folks again because it seems like we all run in the same circles. I meet people every time I go to a different conference or rally or whatever it is.

So, I have a feeling we'll cross paths again outside of this podcast. Yes, I 

[00:43:20] Stephanie Quehl: do hope we meet each other. 

[00:43:22] Tom Quehl: I'd love to meet you in person because I admire everything you've done, and you've done it longer than us. And I always say, keep up the fight till the fight is won. And you've kept up the fight longer than us, but we are keeping up the fight till the fight is won.

[00:43:35] Angela Kennecke: Well, I appreciate it. And it takes all of us. Let me tell you, I always say it takes all of us parents to join hands. And to work together. Not everybody is meant for public speaking. Not everybody has to do that part. I'm so glad you guys are doing it. But, you know, just whatever we can do to do our part in our corners of the world, to try to educate and to try to stop this horrible epidemic is so important.

[00:43:58] Tom Quehl: I couldn't agree more. 

[00:44:00] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you so much. 

[00:44:03] Tom Quehl: Thank you. 

[00:44:05] Angela Kennecke: Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends.

So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number dot org.

And thank you for taking the time to learn more about our nation's fentanyl epidemic. If you found this podcast helpful, please leave us a positive review and share it with your friends and family. Together we can make a difference and hopefully prevent more senseless deaths. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Anna Fye.